DISCUSSION: To Plot and Beyond

[thusiamods]

Hey guys, your resident mods here with a... not quite a full-out discussion post, but we'd like to get some ideas and points of note out there and your feedback on the matter. Particularly involving the latest plot and currently running plotlines. There have been a few discussions on plurk, but we'd like to have something more formal to make sure everyone has the opportunity to read and get their input on things that'll affect them.

There's a few things we'd like to touch upon with this post, the main points revolving around current/past/future plots and how we as mods can make things more fun for you in the way we handle them. Also on our agenda are things like State of the Game, God Functions, Player Accessibility, and probably more. To keep things organized, we'll be using header comments to cover specific topics and linking them in the post for easy navigation, so once you see a topic linked here, feel free to jump right to it.

CURRENT PLOTS: Moving HQ | Bitey Dogs | Weres

Week of my Life Posts | State of the Game | Affecting the Gods | Nature

Comments

[supraliminally]

SECOND COMMENT. This is about the issue of whether or not the HQ is even going to be moved at all.

First of all, I was under the impression that the move more or less was a decided issue, although the mods never actually said that, so that was more or less (read: entirely) my bad, and I apologize for having encouraged that notion, especially for people who were upset about it. Part of this is just coming from my RP background - I'm used to playing in games where things are very stringently planned out, sometimes even to the point of being very restrictive. So when this came up, I sort of mentally filled in the blanks with SO THEN THIS IS WHAT IS HAPPENING, LET'S SEE WHAT WE CAN DO WITHIN THOSE CONSTRAINTS. I really want to emphasize that no mod said anything remotely resembling this to me, and that was pretty much just me doing my typical "Someone says A, I jump ahead to B, C, D, E, F, G and then start wondering what to do about HIJKLMNO" bit. It's like that thing in South Park where Cartman literally has to finish the song every time someone starts "Come Sail Away," but with RP, and also all of the things in my life.

Part of the reason I had Yukari push for the whole "set up a second base in the jungle" thing was because I saw that ICly there were some serious objections to moving the building, and most of them seemed to be centered around "holy shit, there are still people missing in the jungle, we can't just abandon them." I thought implementing a plan like that would basically help to ease the IC tension for a lot of people, especially for those whose characters would, if the move happened, become totally despondent about abandoning others, or who might even ICly choose to stay behind, cut off from everyone else. Which is obviously not particularly viable to play for any extended period of time.

But look, if the move isn't a decided issue, (it isn't), that is cool. I think, though, that at some point (not necessarily now) we are going to have to actually decide that issue one way or the other. And to do that, I think we need to get a reading on how many people, OOCly, are actually in favor of having a move happen, and how many people are against it. I think that getting a sense of what people are looking for OOCly can help us to kind of guide the results of the various IC efforts.

[over_the_fop]

I don't think anyone is actually OOCly against it. It's less, to me, a matter of whether we move or not, as to how things flow, naturally. If one thing works awesome! If another works, awesome! One working out doesn't preclude work on another, and moving now versus later is no skin off of my nose, as long as it is something that reacts to what we do, rather than something that is done to be reacted to, if that makes sense.

However, reading the general state of the game post, we may be moving, again, strictly to a sandbox, and reacting to and reacted by may honestly be a moot point.

[over_the_fop]

Basically, I really don't think that talking to the dragons working. Or driving out the predators on the fifth level. Or even driving off the matriarch actually precludes a move.

Or even sets back a timeline, as long, well, the move is engaging and fun. If it works now, excellent! If it doesn't, do it later!

If a divided settlement occurs that even opens up further options. All of them can be engaging and really fun to do.

[supraliminally]

Actually, I sort of got the impression with some of the plurk discussion that there are some people who are specifically opposed to the move. If that was a mistaken impression, that would be good to know, because since yesterday I've been operating under the assumption that there are at least a few who specifically do not want any kind of move to occur. In particular, when I pointed out that some people (including myself) do want to move, the response was more or less 'if you want to move feel free to get your own building.' Which would seem to imply that moving the current building isn't something that person considers to be okay.

If that was a misinterpretation on my part, again, that's fine, but that's something I gotta know now before I figure out how I want to position myself here, both ICly and OOCly. And I think that will be important for the mods as well, to figure out how much pressure, if any, they want to apply to encourage a move.

To some extent I feel like a move more or less inevitably won't happen without A) some danger in the jungle or B) some perceived benefit in some other place they might move to. Even if OOCly people are like, oh cool, we could find a new place to explore and have new things to do, ICly people don't generally just move without some motivation to do so. Yukari would probably want to move just because she enjoys adventure, but how many characters would really be like, well, we know this jungle pretty well now, and it isn't dangerous anymore, but let's head to places unknown just because it sounds fun? I'm guessing not many, although there are probably a few others.

I do get the general complaint, though, that the current situation is maybe applying too much pressure, such that there is very little wiggle-room. But if OOCly there is a feeling that we want to move (I don't know if there is), it can really only happen with at least some application of pressure from one direction or the other. This isn't to say that the pressure has to be so overwhelmingly huge that it can't be moved or fought or changed in any way other than running from it, but on the other hand, if we decide that actually, we can kick the ass of the matriarch and conquer the jungle altogether, we should agree that the move is incredibly unlikely to happen under those circumstances.

Which, look, if that is what the majority of the game wants, I really am legitimately okay with that. But I just want to know now, so I can figure out where to put my RP energy.

[best_ended]

The thing with this is that I honestly don't think people are against a move! What they are against is the idea that NO MATTER WHAT WE DO, THERE WILL BE A MOVE. This isn't something that is directly stated by mods, but it's something that players are concerned about. Knowing the end-result of an event can sometimes kill the joy of playing out the result for some people. This is why when the mods dropped the ball with how the dragons were presented and then suddenly, we have Eizon talking about moving and NO YOU CAN'T FIGHT THEM, THERE IS NO CHANCE, MOVING IS THE ONLY OPTION, people OOCly kneejerk and have a "Whaaaaat?" moment that can kill any drive to play with the plot.

This is what people are meaning when they're protesting the move. It's not the idea of the move--frankly, a new setting NOT in a tree would be A++! But more the REASONS for the move, what the player-characters can do to effect things, etc, etc. Since this event was mod-run and primarily focusing on the endpoint rather than working with the players at the start (see also: lack of dragon interaction/making them a visible threat), a lot of players were having doubts as to whether they could really do ANYTHING to effect the outcome--i.e. determining where they will end up, how they will get there, or even IF they will move at all.

Your plotting along with Tempest's has opened up different routes for people to play with, AND THAT'S GOOD! I was actually really relieved to see that these sort of things were being permitted, but again, other people feel a lack of urgency or a lack of followthrough when they feel like they know what the end result will be. So as long as there is a CHANCE that a move might not happen, it will motivate people since there are bullheaded stubborn character types that will throw themselves at dragons until they are forcibly taken away--THIS CAN BE FUN FOR PEOPLE.

So tl;dr: it's less about people not wanting the move and more people perceiving how the idea of a move was brought into play in the first place. A lot of things are going on now OOCly that are helping this issue, including the mods acknowledging and trying now to correct interact with the playerbase.

Finally, even if the characters do defeat the matriarch or find a way to subdue her, let's all remember that this is also a redflag for a Nature God to make an appearance, possibly :) Those are still an issue and, think, what if we won the battle with the dragons but lost the battle with a Nature God again?

See, things like that twist is what players would love. Because then it would be fun. It would still force a move, but there would be awesomeness for the characters taking power into their own hands--because like Izaya will argue with gods, people will try to tame or conquer! that's how humanity is!--only to get shown that they're still faaaar from being safe or conquering the world. Mada mada dane or something.

Even if the mods want a certain end result, it should always be allowed to have a chance for failure/success, depending, otherwise people have trouble knowing what to do. See also: how you want to know if people are okay with one thing over another so you know what to play. Leaving an open but directed end can help both of these troubles.

[murderofcrow]

Something we do feel that was misunderstood by players was that moving was imminent and that things being said/played out ICly were being interpreted as the OOC outcome. Because two god npcs played by mods decided to do a thing, that there was no changing it! And frankly, we have no idea how to discourage that kind of thought other than flat out telling people 'oh btw you don't have to listen to them when they do this thing' at the very start of every plot line we run. Which runs into the problem of how much can we tell the players about a plot point without them feeling that a) we've spoiled all the fun of it by telling you what will happen as the 'default line' and b) discouraging players from trying something that we as mods didn't think of because they're under the belief that the default line is all that CAN happen.

We do acknowledge that we mishandled the introduction of this plot point poorly, but one thing we really want to avoid is people feeling trapped into certain solutions. For example, using this particular plot point, we as mods came up with a few ways that it could be stopped, discouraged, etc before starting it! And we prepared general concepts of what would happen if x happened or y happened. But we also felt that telling/sharing these with the community straight out in the ooc post felt way too much like... telling the players 'these are the only ways this event can be handled' and players wouldn't try other things because of it, which is why we decided to go with a more open-ended route and see instead what the players would come up with. Which we admit backfired because then players felt there was now only ONE way to go about this plot and that was the complete opposite of what we wanted.

I think a real problem for us when it comes to running plots is just how much we should be letting the players know at the plot beginning. Like you said, knowing how something ends just discourages people from trying anything new, but also leaving it too open and free form leaves that feeling of 'what do'.

Would players have preferred we'd given them OOC options of different things they could do at the start of a plot, or would that feel like way too much hand-holding when it comes to working out how to work with a plot? I think if we could get a solid idea on how players feel about that, we could work something out because so far we've just been trying out things and being told 'no that was a bad way to do it' and it's... pretty discouraging to be honest.

[best_ended]

Ah, yeah. It's true, there's a lot of misunderstanding on the players' part. I won't object to that.

Mostly, when it comes to plots, it doesn't hurt to drop hints, is what I've found. There have been plots that mods have run simply by dropping a nudge or a hint somehow or another that would lead a character to one choice over another. These can be as subtle or as overt as however you mods deem necessary, of course. One thing I will say for the post with Eizon is that it was VERY effective in getting people to talk out what to do about things. This was a correct way to get the plot more into the players' hands, even if there were some elements that could have gone better with the post/character-NPC interaction itself. Like I've said elsewhere, even though the start of the plot could have been more visible and other things could have happened to grab the players' attentions and have them come up with options, that post helped a lot with these issues.

For me, I know that two of my characters react more than act--one because he's too busy with his life being kind of utter crap and the other because he's a Well How Does It Effect Me? kind of thing. So without a bait, they might not jump for plot. This is why "leave it to the players" completely can be a bad thing. Because you have proactive characters and you have reactive characters. The Eizon post was very good for the reactive characters so they can have a "Wait, what--YOU CAN'T DO THAT! WE'LL FIND A WAY!" reaction and for the proactive characters, they start their plotting HOW to find a way--see also: Yukari and Tempest.

With the whole This Is The Only Option feels that some players got out of the current plot until it was explained that this wasn't the only option it was just Eizon being Eizon, I feel as though... if there had been more input from gods other than Eizon, explaining what is going on, maybe that feeling would be less? Of course, this post was Eizon acting toward what he thought was best. Shouldn't there be other gods doing the same? Again, working on getting Selyir to get the Shades moving is a good step toward this! But really, other gods getting involved for the good of the people since they consistently claim to want to help the population survive and thrive would be a good thing!

Now that's not to say that you know, gods should be all up in characters' businesses, but to me, they haven't been much of a presence lately? (Which I think can be fixed with that AC check thing you guys are implementing.) Not only that but I know a number of the characters don't go looking to someone like Eizon for information or assistance--he's curt and to the point and often not forgiving of ignorance or people being aggressive or argumentative. Not slighting the character--I enjoy playing off of those types in certain settings! Just not. Where the situation is called Critical and my characters are trying to get more information, argue their case against an idea, offer suggestions, etc...

Maybe having another god there or having a different god explain things would be best next time? Again, with the flooding plot, there were MANY gods out and about during that time, and were very open for discussion and getting answers. I feel that this is one of the reasons players liked that plot more than the current one. Again, THIS IS NOTHING AGAINST EIZON, I WOULD ACTUALLY LIKE TO PLAY OFF HIM MORE, but for a situation like this, when a character comes asking questions/being argumentative because they are concerned/passionate about their situation, the last thing they need to hear is a blunt "You're an idiot, listen to what I say." It doesn't make for a very cooperative character and a number of characters have previous Very Negative experience with this type of god.

I know it's difficult for plottings, so playerbase should be forgiving with things when something doesn't quite work out.

[murderofcrow]

Yeah I will admit originally it was going to be Selyir fielding questions but it... somehow ended up being Eizon who is never a good God Representative when it comes to interacting with people.

I do think having more gods get involved with the plotline currently would be great! I'm pretty glad Veseiy got tapped to help in a way and I'd love for more gods to jump in on this and not feel like it's an 'only Veseiy, Selyir, and Eizon can attend this party, no other gods allowed' thing, which I think might currently be the case.

Mmm... to fix that, I think we as mods need to work on communicating things to our god players more actively and letting them know any background information they'd need to know to jump in on a plot. Getting on top of our god newsletters again could help with that, or even just tapping the god chan to let people know when something's happening right at that moment.

... Sorry I am kind of thinking outloud here but I guess what we're both kind of aiming for was rather than having the mods present something with their characters as 'hey this is a thing now go', to spread out the information more to our god players and even certain characters who'd be involved in a particular plot point, which would help in making things feel less... enclosed/unavoidable. And I do think that is something we can definitely do, and would help take a lot of the pressure that we feel in having to run everything ourselves for a plot.

[best_ended]

Yes, all of this exactly.

Sometimes with plotty things, dropping hints/giving information to certain gods/characters can make things erupt very quickly. Sometimes a god/character will sit on the information until they feel it's a better time and thus it moves slower. No way is entirely wrong, either. It would help better the flow Nishi mentioned elsewhere, even.

Mostly, communication all around would be A++ and if there's ever any slow-down, instead of throwing more things at the wall to see what sticks, getting some input from others can help! So... yes. Basically, I think that's what we're all trying to say here. There are players who genuinely love this game for its possibilities and for the CR that can take place here, so of course they WILL want to help mods/gods/characters out when needed!

[murderofcrow]

Communication has definitely been highlighted in everything as one of our recurring problems and it is something we're going to try hard to focus on and fix. We've seen a lot of players coming forward with offers to give input on just about everything and we really appreciate it! We'd also like to put these glorious resources to use, so we'll be working on doing just that once we've settled down on the changes we'll be making internally and, at least in regards to this specific plot, once more things get going.

[over_the_fop]

Having been IN most of the plurks or stalked them carefully myself, the rarrr about the move wasn't about the move. And the one you're talking about it was a wellspring of frustration that came from a great deal of elements.

Basically, the plurks were about how this wasn't fun. The move was just the framing of the discussion.

Honestly? Everything you've mentioned in the first part of your comments strikes me as fun and great. I would really enjoy DOING those.

I wouldn't enjoy pressing a button, donating energy and moving. And that's what the complaints were. And I think I said multiple times in one of those plurks that no one is specifically against the move.

Honestly, I love new environments... but it was a halfassed framing that was half interactive, and mostly not. There was nothing that convinced me that this plot needed to happen RIGHT NOW as a player, even though logically the character could see the need.

Like I said up above. START IT. RUN IT. If you do it, they will come and be like OH SHINY I CAN DO THIS USE ME HERE. There's no amount of arguing that will convince people that the move is a great idea.

But it's very, very easy to SHOW people that it can be fun. And you have more than enough initiative and frankly more mod backing than anyone else in any of your efforts. Roll with it, use it, roll people into it, convince them it's fun.

And what you want will happen.

Your energy is best dedicated into ANYTHING YOU WANT. And a truly interactive RP allows that.

It's not too much pressure, honestly, it's the type of pressure... PEEK ON DOWN to my thread way down there, and I kind of outline my overall frustration with plot execution here. It's not even... anything my character could star in. It's not even something ONE WAY OR ANOTHER he'd be interested in. But as a player, it has made me sideeye so hard I might froth a bit.

There's so much that could be done BY PLAYERS, by people like you who WANT A THING, by people like Dera who WANT ANOTHER THING, by people like Izaya who just want to ROLL IN THE MIDDLE OF A THING - ANY THING THAT IT IS. That there's no reason for the gods to give simple answers to complex, engaging problems.

And that's where my beef is, and I think... that's where all the plurks came from.

And I think, honestly, some of the frustrations IN them got redirected onto you, and that sucks. It really does. And I personally apologize if any of my own comments seemed that way.

[supraliminally]

No you don't need to apologize! Also I am late replying and this will be short because I should really do some actual tags, but in general, yes, okay! I think I misunderstood what was being said and I am happy that no one is like, super adamant about not moving. And I mean, I'm not super adamant about not not moving, if that is what makes the most sense for the game, if you get my meaning. So yes. I am not very coherent right now but yeah. ANYWAY. Just. Things.